Aud Mason-Hyde 來自澳洲，是一位非二元性別的跨性別酷兒演員，與奧斯卡影后 Olivia Colman 和 John Lithgow 合演電影《JIMPA》，令這部感人至深的三人家庭劇成為今年辛丹斯電影節的亮點之一。Aud 同時是一位詩人、演說家和活動家，是 2018 年 Rumble U26 詩歌大賽的冠軍，年僅 12 歲時亦曾於 TEDx 發表一場關於性別定型的演講，隨即於一星期內獲得超過 100 萬的瀏覽次數，並登上了澳洲《Vogue》雜誌的文化與生活專欄。

《JIMPA》這部電影的導演是 Aud Mason-Hyde 的母親 Sophie Hyde，戲中 Aud 飾演 “Frances”一角，Frances 的母親 “Hannah” 由 Olivia Colman 飾演，Frances 的外公由 John Lithgow 飾演。這部電影引人入勝之處，在於整部戲的主軸僅由這三個角色組成，即使有潛在的衝突關係，這個三角形卻牢固而不可分割，三位主角之間的互動產生豐富的劇情線。

這次 Aud Mason-Hyde 的專訪中，最令筆者深刻的，是 Aud 非一般看待「關係」的視野，真實世界中的 Aud 能夠坦然面對「衝突」，並從中學習甚至嘗試欣賞「衝突」的美妙之處，因為 Aud 並不著重於「衝突」的本身，而是看重衝突過後的「修復過程」，並表示擁有健康的衝突是一生人所學習的終身課題。

Editor: Meiling Heung
Photo & Video: Mickey To, Chris Li
Art: Emma Chan

1. The film “JIMPA” was produced by your mother, Sophie. How did you two adjust to switching the relationship from “Mother and Child” in a family to “Director and Actor” at the film set?
《JIMPA》這部電影由你的母親 Sophie 製作，你們倆如何適應由家中的親子關係，切換到片場中導演和演員的關係？

A: Yeah, it was very interesting working with my mom as a director, and kind of learning how to be professional on a film set, not just the mother and child. I think we were helped along a lot by the fact that she’s been making films with me my whole life, so I feel very much like I’ve been part of the process. It was kind of a natural transition. There were definitely some funny moments. I think the funniest was I had my 19th birthday on set, and it was the day we were shooting an argument scene between Frances, my character, and Hannah, their mum. And so I rocked up to set on my birthday, and I spent my birthday, you know, being directed by my real mum to have an argument with my fake mum, which I think was quite funny. But my mother and I are very close. We are best friends and collaborators. And so, you know, we just had the best time working together. We really got along.

是的，與身為導演的母親合作是一件非常有趣的事，我學習如何在片場表現得專業，不只跨越本身的親子關係，我認為我整個人生都在和母親合作製作電影的這個事實幫了我們很多，令我在過程中感到自己是一份子 ，是一個很自然的角色轉換，也發生過一些很有趣的事，最有趣的一次是我在片場過我的 19 歲生日，當天我需要和戲內的母親 (Olivia Colman 飾) 演一場吵架的對手戲，所以我慶祝生日的同時，由我的親生母親負責導演我和戲內母親吵架的這場戲，我覺得挺有趣的，但我和母親的關係非常親密，我們既是摯友又是同事，所以我們合作是最好的時光，我們相處甚好。

《JIMPA》劇照

2. Does Hannah, who was played by Olivia Colman in the film, represent Sophie’s struggles in her real life?
Olivia Colman 在戲裏飾演你的母親 (Hannah)，Hannah 這個角色代表了導演 Sophie 在真實世界中的內心掙扎嗎？

A: Yes and no. I think every character in the film, there’s like an element of truth and an element of fiction. And I think Hannah probably more than the others, even I would say that, Hannah’s avoidance of conflict is very dramatized. That’s been turned up to the maximum, so a lot of the real struggles that the family has or that mum has, but that they’re much smaller in real life and they’re kind of dialed up for the purpose of dramatization. And so I think Hannah would never actually make this movie about her family, but my real mum did make the movie. And so I think that’s probably part of it too. We’re all just that little bit bolder than the characters. And so yes and no, it’s my ambiguous answer.

是，也不是。我認為戲裏的每一個角色，都承載著真實與虛構的元素。我覺得 Hannah 這角色可能比其他角色更甚，我會說 Hannah 避免面對衝突的程度是非常戲劇化的，在戲裏展現了極致的程度，包括很多家庭或母親要面對的衝突，在真實世界可能沒有那麼嚴重，但為了戲劇化而將衝突程度升級。再說我認為戲裏的 Hannah 定不會付諸實行製作一部關於原生家庭的電影，但真實世界中我的親生母親真的製作了這樣的一部電影！所以我認為這是另一個原因，我們每個人都比戲裏的角色更勇敢，所以我的答案說「是也不是」，這是我給予很模棱兩可的答案。

3. For the majority, we don’t usually introduce ourselves as “heterosexual” or “straight” while greeting people. However, “they” always clarify their identities as “queer”, “nonbinary”, “bisexual”, “lesbian” or “trans” while greeting someone new. Do you think that is proof that individuals of the LGBTQ+ Community are still considered as “outliers” in our society?
以「大眾」來說，我們很少向別人介紹自己為「異性戀者」或「直的人」，但是 LGBTQ+ 卻常要向別人說明自己是「酷兒」、「非二元性別」、「雙性戀者」、「女同性戀者」、「跨性別者」這些身份；你認為這是否證明了 LGBTQ+ 組別人士仍然被社會視為「異類」？

A: Yeah, I think it’s a really interesting question, I think, unfortunately, yes. Especially in certain places in the world, LGBTQ+ people are increasingly pushed to the margins of society, and we know that’s been the case in history, is that we’ve been marginalized and considered to be “freaks” and to be “abnormal”. Even the word “queer”, when it was first used was a way to call us other, and a lot of us have reclaimed that. And there’s a really interesting conversation in the film about, you know, whether that’s something to be reclaimed or not. But I think that for me, certainly like my queer and trans identity. The thing that I find most joy in is being unconventional and living unconventionally, and trying to redefine what “family” means and what “love” means. And how we can have beautiful community relationships that are outside of what we would consider “normal” or “normative”. For me, the goal isn’t “normal”, the goal is “happy”. And if that means being a freak to some people, I’m fine with being a freak to some people. And I think, you know, that’s really easy for me to say coming from Australia and looking the way I do and being able to sort of having the support of my family is a very privileged position, but also, I think we find strength in banding together as a community, even when it’s not trendy or marketable or palatable. And so, you know, I want to lean into all those things about being queer.

這是個很有趣的問題，我認為，很不幸地，的確是這樣的。尤其是在地球上的某些角落，LGBTQ+ 持續地被推擠到社會的邊緣，而我們也知道歷史上也是這樣的，我們被邊緣化，也被視為「怪胎」或「不正常」，即使是 “queer” 這個字，一開始被用作稱呼我們為「異類」的意思，而很多同志曾經嘗試要求糾正這個用字。在戲裏有一段很有趣的對話，正是關於這些用字是否應該重新糾正，但對我而言，我很喜歡「酷兒」和「跨性別者」這些身份，不落入俗套地生活是我獲得快樂的最大泉源，還有重新定義「家庭」和「愛」，我們如何能在所謂的「正常族群」以外建造美麗的社區；對我來說，我的目標不是成為「正常人」，我的目標是成為「快樂的人」，如果那對於其他人來說是怪胎的話，那就視我為怪胎吧！對於我這個來自於澳洲這個地方，而且能獲得家庭支持的人來說，已經處於十分優勢的位置，但我希望能與其他人連結起來並尋獲力量，即使在別人的眼中被視為「不流行」、「沒有市場價值」或「不合意的」，我還是傾向選擇成為一位酷兒。

4. In real life, do you prefer being called a “daughter” or a “child”?
在真實世界中，你傾向希望被稱呼為「女兒」還是「孩子」？

A: In real life, I prefer being called “child”. It’s an interesting thing when you become an adult and your parents still call you their child. I think, “adult-child” is an interesting term. I mean, maybe that’s why I love working with my family so much is that they don’t have to introduce me as their “child”, they can introduce me as their “actor” or their “collaborator” or their “colleague”, you know? There’re so many words to use because we’re so many things to each other. But never “daughter” for me.

在真實世界中，我傾向於被稱為「孩子」，有趣的是即使你長大成年，但父母始終會稱呼你做「孩子」，”adult-child” 是一個很有趣的詞彙，可能這就是我這麼喜歡跟家人共事的原因，他們不需要稱呼我做「孩子」，他們可以介紹我為「演員」、「合作者」、「同事」，太多稱呼可以用了，因為我們對彼此而言是有多重的關係，但絕不要稱呼我做「女兒」啦！

5. Do you believe in “Polyamory”?
你相信「開放婚姻」嗎？

A: Yeah, I do, I do believe in polyamory. Yeah I mean, what does it mean to believe in it? It exists! People do it. So yes, I… I think it’s a really interesting model. There’re so many questions that polyamory asks of us to consider. I think it’s the same as when any kind of alternative model of living is posed. When anything is outside of the status quo, what it asks of us is to really, genuinely interrogate what we want and what kinds of lives we want to lead. And so even if it’s not for everyone, I think there are some really interesting conversations to be had in, considering polyamory as a way of life and considering alternative and unconventional types of lives because it allows us to dissolve social scripts, and go beyond them into what our actual human desires are. And, happiness, you know, how do we find those without worrying about what social structures decide they need to be or define them as or what’s normal or palatable or good.

I think polyamorous people are confronting jealousy every day. There’s a really interesting thing here where it’s like, such as I’m feeling jealous right now. What am I not getting that makes me feel jealous or what about this situation is giving me that? Like, how do we reframe these feelings? Especially emotions that make us act out jealousy and anger, and sadness? And how do we reframe them as “curiosity” and “excitement”, and openness towards our own experiences? So much can be learned from deep friendship because the way that you would approach a friend, having a new lover or a new love interest that they’re excited about would be curiosity and excitement or all these other emotions. We would be happy that they were happy. I think especially in a polyamorous model, there’s a really interesting thing to be found, which is that the basis of all your relationships is deep friendship. How do you respond to your partner having a new partner with curiosity and with excitement?

我相信的，但「相信」又是怎麼一回事呢？因為它確實存在著！有人真的生活在這種關係模式底下，所以⋯⋯ 是的，我覺得這是個很有趣的關係模式，「開放婚姻」令我們思考很多問題，但其實其他的婚姻制度可能也存在著同樣的問題，當任何事情一不符合於「現狀」，就令我們由衷地思考我們到底想要甚麼？我們希望以甚麼模式生活？即使這不應用在所有人身上，我仍認為這是個很值得探討的問題，比較「開放婚姻」和其他傳統或非傳統模式的制度，這容許我們解開「社交劇本」，並探索人類真正的渴望是甚麼，還有快樂！我們如何能尋找那些答案而不需要憂慮社會結構需要我們擔任的角色，何謂「正常」、「合意」或「好」呢？

生活在「開放婚姻」模式下的人每天都要面對「嫉妒心」這個問題，我認為很有趣的是，如果你學習如何將你的情感例如「嫉妒心」重新裝上一個「好奇心」的框架，你就會知道該如何做，究竟背後導致我嫉妒的真正原因是甚麼？我們要如何重新組織這些情感？尤其是一些真實的情感例如嫉妒、憤怒、和悲傷，我們要如何重新審視這些情感，並以開放的心態去看待自身的經歷？我們能從深層的友誼中學習到很多事情，例如我們靠近一位朋友、新情人、或暗戀對象的方式，這些都令我們產生好奇心和刺激感，或其他情感。我們會有同理心，對方開心就令我們開心，我認為尤其是在一個「開放婚姻」的關係模式下，很值得探討的是，所有感情關係基礎可能都源自於深層的友誼，你如何抱持好奇心和興奮感去面對自己的伴侶擁有另一位伴侶？我想這就是「同理心」的有趣之處。

6. Is “Polyamory” the same as what is called a “Non-exclusive relationship”?
「一妻多夫制」和「開放式關係」是一樣嗎？

A: I don’t know, I think no, and yes. I think it’s more like non-monogamy. And then within non-monogamy is like open relationships. And then polyamory is a slightly different thing. But I think as with anything, the lines are a bit blurred. You know, I think it’s a little more non-binary than that. “Open relationship” and “Polyamory” are a little more intertwined than that. People love in various ways.

我不知道⋯⋯ 我想不是？同時也是的。我認為這更像是「非單配偶制」，而在「非單配偶制」下也包含開放關係，然後「一妻多夫制」是略為不同的，但我認為它們之間的界線是頗模糊的，我認為當中沒有那麼規範性，「開放式關係」和「一妻多夫制」比我們想像的更糾纏不清，人類以不同的方式相愛著。

《JIMPA》劇照

7. There was a scene where Hannah was holding hands with Richard while sitting next to the river, and Frances caught the moment. In normal circumstances, Frances would have blamed their mother for cheating their father, but Frances did not. What was Frances thinking at the moment?
電影《JIMPA》有一場戲，Hannah 和 Richard 在河邊拖著手，而 Frances (Aud 飾演) 目睹了那一幕，在正常的情況下，Frances 大概會責怪母親背叛自己的父親，但戲裏的 Frances 並沒有這樣做，Frances 這角色當刻究竟在想甚麼？

A: I think it’s a really interesting thing because I don’t know if Francis would normally be too worried about it. I think the really gorgeous thing about the family that we put on screen is they are very open to each other and they don’t come at things with judgment. They come at things with questions and love. That’s such an interesting twist on the kids seeing their parents cheating narrative that were sometimes seen in films and TV because I think Francis’s true emotion in that moment is they see a side of their mum that they’ve never seen. And I think one of the real messages of the film is that in parenting, the most generous thing you can do is to show your child the messy parts of you and the human parts of you. Because when a child learns to understand their parent as a whole human, not as this perfect idea of mum or dad, but as a whole person, who makes mistakes and does strange things and loves multiple people, or even leave them to go to Amsterdam to pursue a career, right?

There’re so many iterations in the film. When a parent does that, this hurts and there’s pain, but also that child learns about autonomy, parenting and all of the things they could do with their life. That sort of opens the world up to them. It’s one of the gifts that Hannah gives Frances as a parent is by showing them the messy parts of her. And I think in that moment on the bridge, Francis looking at Richard and Hannah, there’s just a kind of hopeful curiosity in them. They’re like, oh, who is this? What are you doing? What does this mean? Something about you that I didn’t realize. I think it’s a reassessment of who they thought their mum was, which I think it actually is a really beautiful thing.

我覺得有趣的是，我不知道 Frances 這角色其實有多擔心戲裏母親的情況，我覺得戲裏這家人展現最高尚的情操在於他們對彼此都抱持很開放的態度，而非批判性的態度，他們用「問題」和「愛」的方式去對待彼此。那一幕是很有趣的轉捩點，當一個小孩看見母親在一般的媒體描寫成是「背叛」父親的情況下，Frances 當刻最真實的情感是他目睹了從未曾看過母親的一面，而我認為這部戲其中一個想傳遞的訊息就是教育的部分，家長最高尚的行為就是在孩子面前展露自己最不堪而又最人性化的部分，因為當孩子能人性化地看待自己的父母，而不是將父母當作「聖人」，父母也會犯錯、做怪事、或愛上了其他人，甚至好像戲裏跑到阿姆斯特丹去追求自己的事業，對嗎？

戲裏有很多重述，當父母做了一些行為，帶來了痛苦和傷害，但同時亦令孩子學會自主，教育和其他人生中可做的事，為他們開拓了另一種視野，Hannah 可以展露自己的不堪對於 Frances 來說是一份好的禮物，在河邊橋上 Frances 目睹母親 Hannah 和 Richard 在拖手，引發了他的好奇心。他們現在是甚麼情況？他們在做甚麼？他們的行為意味著甚麼？一些你也意識不到的意義，可以重新評估母親其實是一個怎樣的人，我認為這其實是很美好的事情。

《JIMPA》劇照

8. Do you think Hannah had truly forgiven her father JIMPA for leaving her when she was 13? Was that one of the reasons why Hannah was so ready to say goodbye to her father?
你認為戲裏的 Hannah 有沒有真正原諒過父親 JIMPA？JIMPA 在她 13 歲時離開了自己，這是否劇情到最後 Hannah 這麼輕易地接受 JIMPA 即將離世的原因？

A: Gosh, has Hannah forgiven Jim? Look, I think the answer is no. I think Hannah has repressed the feeling. And I think that Hannah’s avoidance of conflict really has led to her not being able to forgive Jim because she hasn’t accepted that she was hurt by Jim. But obviously, it’s a hurtful thing for your parent to leave you when you’re so young, to pursue their career and their dreams and the life that they want. And I think that in so many ways, Hannah and Jim would both have been happier if they had a conflict about it and then repaired and been able to forgive each other. Well, you know Hannah be able to forgive Jim, because as beautiful as it is that she has the kind of relationship she has with him, it could be so much deeper if she allowed herself to be angry with him. So I think, no, she hasn’t forgiven him. I don’t know if that leads to some of her feelings about him dying. I think, you know, the question of Jim’s death is much more about autonomy and quality of life and about what he wants out of his life. And Hannah becomes sort of a champion for Jim being able to be selfish in the last hours of his life, you know, and being able to stop giving and just go, which is a beautiful thing.

老天，Hannah 有真正原諒過 Jim 嗎？我認為答案是沒有。我認為 Hannah 一直以來都壓抑著自己的情感，而 Hannah 避免衝突的習慣使她無法真正原諒 Jim，因為她從沒有接受過自己受到 Jim 傷害的事實，但顯然地，如果父母在你年幼時為了追求自己事業、夢想、生活模式而離開了自己，是一件很受傷的事。我認為如果 Hannah 和 Jim 一早就發生了正面衝突，從而修復關係再原諒彼此，他們會快樂很多！而 Hannah 表面看似原諒了 Jim 是因為他們倆彼此間存在著微妙而美好的關係，但如果她容許自己一早就發洩對父親的憤怒，這段關係應該可以再發展至更深層，所以我認為 Hannah 從來都沒有原諒過 Jim，我不知道這是否她能輕易接受 Jim 即將離世的原因，我認為 Hannah 最後做的決定更多源自於關顧 Jim 的自主權、生活質素，以及他想要甚麼，而 Hannah 最終亦能從中得到解脫，讓 Jim 在人生中最後數小時依然保留他的自私，而她也可以停止再給予，真的放手，這是很美好的事。

9. How do you deal with conflicts in real life?
你如何處理現實生活中的衝突？

A: How do I deal with conflict in real life? I’m learning! I would say, to have healthy conflict is a lifelong mission, probably. The family in the film is not dissimilar to my family. We have big open discussions, but I wouldn’t call them conflicts. It’s very rare that we get mad with one another, or it’s definitely very rare that we express that anger and so many points. That’s been such a wonderful thing. I’m learning to approach other relationships. I’m learning through my friends and partners to talk things through and express when you’re hurt, be angry at each other and accept that it’s not always personal and you can move past it. Having healthy conflicts and not avoiding it, that’s the most respectful thing, right? Like, if I respect you enough to tell you when you’ve hurt me, that means I feel safe with you and I trust you and I’m going to hold you accountable. That’s how much I respect you and love you. If we can do that, and have a conflict and repair from it, we’re going to be so much stronger in whatever our relation is. I think I’m learning to do that. It’s going to be a lifelong process. But I think it’s deeply enjoyable.

我如何處理現實生活中的衝突嗎？我還在學習中！我會說，擁有健康的衝突，應該是一個終身課題。戲裏的家庭跟我現實中的家庭很相似，我們有開放式的討論，我不會稱之為衝突。生對方的氣是一件很珍貴的事情，更珍貴的是如果我們能表達自己的憤怒，那是多麼美好的事。我還在學習如何建立其他關係，我透過朋友和伴侶去學習表達自己的感受，然後就可以放下。擁有健康的衝突而不是避免它，是很值得尊敬的事，對嗎？如果我能向你坦白被傷害的感受，證明我很尊敬你，和你在一起我感到很安全，我相信你，我認為你值得信任，這就是我有多尊重你和愛你的表現！如果我們可以擁抱衝突，然後修復關係，我們的關係會變得更強大很多倍，我認為我正在學習中，即使這是一個終身課題，但我非常享受其中。

10. How did taking part in the act in this movie help you get to know who you are?
參演這部電影，如何令你認識自己是誰？

A: It’s funny. I think showing up to set every day making this film, it felt a little bit like inner child therapy. I was like, there’s little me and I have to love them and support them, and be them! Like I have to be Frances. And I have such a soft spot for Frances, still. Even the things that I think are different to me or that I find annoying about Frances, I still just think they’re so precious and beautiful and, they have a special place in my heart.

Making this film absolutely was instrumental in sort of discovering new things about myself and about my family, and solidifying some ideas about, certainly about interpersonal relationships. One of the most interesting parts of making this film was being able to meet so many beautiful older, queer and LGBTQ+ people. You know, we worked with an ensemble of older queer characters, and the actors of those characters such as Hans Kesting, Frank Sanders and Erle de Lanooi were just so excellent to work with. We just had such a blast. We were just laughing, and one of the real things that we wanted to showcase with this film is intergenerational connections between LGBT communities. How do we have more dialog between younger and older queer and trans people? It’s funny because that’s what we wanted to show with the film, but in doing so, we brought together a lot of younger and older trans and queer people, so we did it while we were making a film about it.

For me, like as a young queer and trans person, to meet all these older gay men and hear about their experiences and talk with them and spend time with them, I think that was probably the part that I found the most special. Even though my real Jimpa is dead, I got to commune with him. I got to sort of spend a year of my life imagining what it would be like to have that conversation with him. I spent a year of my life doing all these works to sort of honor him with accountability, acknowledging that he was probably, you know, a bit mean sometimes. And we would probably argue a lot, but still love each other very deeply. I think I got to know him, more than I did in life. And I also got to know myself through my community in a really beautiful way. It’s been such a pleasure to make the film.

很有趣的是，我認為每天去片場製作這部電影，就像是內在小孩的心靈治療之旅。我要愛和支持這個內在小孩，也要成為他！我要成為 Frances，Frances 在我心目中永遠佔有一個重要位置，即使他和我有很多不相似的地方，甚至我覺得他有時很煩人，我仍然覺得很珍貴和美好，在我心中佔有特別的一席之位。

製作這部電影就如樂章般美妙，尋找自己和原生家庭，也鞏固了一些關於人際關係的想法，其中一樣最有趣的事就是認識很多比我年長的酷兒和 LGBTQ+，我們與一些年長的酷兒團體合作，當中的演員包括 Hans Kesting，Frank Sanders 和 Erle de Lanooi，和他們合作實在太美好了！是一個很愉快的經歷，過程中充滿笑聲，而我們希望透過這部戲傳遞的其中一個訊息就是 LGBT 社區中跨世代的連結，年輕和年長的酷兒之間如何有多一點的對話？由於我們希望在這部戲中展現，因此連繫了一群年輕和年長的酷兒，所以我們在製作這部戲的過程就正正實現了我們所希望傳遞的訊息。

對我而言，作為年輕的酷兒，認識年長的男同性戀者，和聆聽他們的經歷，和他們溝通、相處，應該是最特別的一環。即使我在現實生活中的外公已過世，我仍然感到和他融和一體，我用了整整一年的時間想像和他相處的時光，我用了一年的時間用這部戲向他致敬，即使他有時有點刻薄，我們應該會有很多爭拗，但內心深處仍很愛對方。我認為透過這部戲對他的認識，比我一輩子所了解的程度更多，我亦透過這些團體以極美好的方式認識自己，能夠參與製作這部電影是我的榮幸。

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